Minion's Mastering 101? - Guild Wars Forums

Kylista · Jan 10, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Ok, so I followed the craze of the day and made a MM last week...now my problem is this, can someone teach me how to get the most out of my minions? My basic question is how to keep them alive. I understand the constant degen and it gets worse the more you heal them so am I supposed to spam Verata's Sacrifice as soon as possible once its done recharing? Do I do the same thing with Blood of the master? OR.....am I supposed to time the casting of those so that they don't degen faster?
Final question, can someone explain to me the details of the degen (I know the basics). If I cast BOM as fast as possible, am I making them degen faster?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing if a fellow monk is casting heal area on my minions?

My skill set for the minions is this:
Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the master
Heal area
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Animate Bone Fiend

My main attribute distribution is this:
soul reaping: 11
death: 14

Thanks!

Shadowsoflifex · Jan 10, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Im not to big on MMs but Healarea = great for an MM. Heals all thoose minions at once. ( i have a necro but hes more of blood/SS).

Carinae · Jan 10, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Use Search. There are some really solid MM builds in Riverside and Campfire.

Kylista · Jan 10, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

My question is not really a build related one, its more how to use the skills in the build.....I could care less what everyone's build is, I just want to know what's a good way to maximize the life of my minions.....

Snowduck · Jan 10, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Healing doesn't speed up minion degen rate. Neither your healing or a monk healing will affect that at all. Degen starts at -1 pip, and increases by -1 pip every 20 seconds. They'll max at -10 pips just like a player does, but "hidden" degen will continue to accumulate that will eventually cancel out the +10 pips from Verata's Sacrifice.

I recast Verata's Sacrifice every time it's ready, and toss in a Heal Area as I need it due to sacrifice costs.

MM also stands for Motion Machine. A team with a MM should be moving quickly, picking up fresh corpses as you go. Get Death up to 16 so they have as much health and armor as possible.

Kylista · Jan 10, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Ahhhh...yes that answer is exactly what I was looking for....okay so that helps a ton, thank you.
By the way what brought this up also was last night, I was doing a mission with my monk character, and having a MM necro as one of my other characters, I brought along heal area to help the MM necro we had in our group. I would always try to cast heal area to support the necro but eventually he shouted back (in cap's no less)....

The_Crummy_MM_In_My_Group: STOP HEALING MY MINIONS BECAUSE THEY DEGEN FASTER

I was very confused because I thought it was based on time and not the amount of heal they get....thanks again!

DeanBB · Jan 10, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Was he using them as bombs? Perhaps that was his point, let them die so they explode and also grant him energy? Otherwise, he's an idiot.

Carinae · Jan 10, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

There is a persistent rumor that any healing except BotM/VS causes minions to degen faster. Especially monk heals.

It's total rubbish, of course. I run N/Mo with Heal Area and I have not seen this happen.

Fungus Amongus · Jan 10, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Time for some solid testing tonight. I was criticized for using healing spring to aid in keeping a teammate's minions alive. I beleive I know the reasoning behind the misconception that healing causes minions to degen faster. (I will assume this is misconception until I complete my test.)

1.) As is commonly stated, minions' degeneration increases over time.
2.) If you don't heal a minion it will eventually die.
3.) If you can heal enough to counter the -10 health regen, a minion should theoretically not die.
4.) If a minion's degeneration can exceed -10 health degeneration, it might eventually be impossible to keep a minion alive.

I beleive the misconception arises from the fact that the healing has helped the minion survive until it is still alive during it's max degeneration. When the healing stops while the minion is at max degeneration, the master perceives that the healing is the cause for the sudden loss of health.

When I complete the test I will post my results.

P.S. Carinae, your guild name is strikingly similar to mine. Did you copy me?

Carinae · Jan 11, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

No, but I get a 5* bonus for being the guild leader.

Manic Smile · Jan 11, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Here

...even if you're not interested in the specific build, makes no sense to be talking about the skills without seeing what I'm refering to. To keep the minnions alive always have Verata's Sacrafice up. In combat Blood of the Master or Heal Area if you know you're clear. After combat or during movement I find this works well ---> Heal Area + BlotM + Heal Area again. This build is intended to keep minnions alive as long as possible. OoB and Verata's Gaze are swappable. The heal area heals you as well, offsetting the sac spells and can be stratigically used to help monks/casters.

Also a ranger build with healing spring in place of Heal area works well and you can throw winnioning in as well for when you really have the minnion army going.

One final note this is pve where I take no damage...I don't recomend having the second sup rune(soul reaping) if your in pvp.

Manic Smile · Jan 11, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fungus Amongus

I beleive I know the reasoning behind the misconception that healing causes minions to degen faster.

Wow that's just stupid...the misscoception, not you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fungus Amongus

4.) If a minion's degeneration can exceed -10 health degeneration, it might eventually be impossible to keep a minion alive.

true...there is a guy who tested this with a monk and found the degen went well beyond -10...up to like 21ish I think before he couldn't keep it alive. At some point a MM CANNOT keep their minnions alive.

Carinae · Jan 11, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

I tested this last night. Hope this settles some misconceptions.

Proposition #1: Minions Degen at 1 pip every 20 seconds.
CORRECT!
Verified.

Proposition #2: Minion Degen maxes at -10 pips.
CORRECT!
After about 3 and a half minutes, then minion degen maxes. No matter what, it never got worse. Even 25 minutes later.

Proposition #3: Eventually, you CANNOT keep a minion alive and it will die.
FALSE!
I was able to keep a Horror and Fiend alive for 25 minutes, and was perfectly capable of maintaining them INDEFINATELY. Once, they reach max degen, stop casting Verata's Sacrifice, and just cast Blood of the Master, Heal Area, and Offering of Blood. I was able to keep healing the horror/fiend to MAX health AND keep myself at MAX HEALTH and MAX ENERGY.

Proposition #4: Horrors and Fiends both have 360 health points.
CORRECT!
It takes 18 seconds for a horror/fiend to degen from max health to zero, while at MAX degen.
-20 health/second * 18 seconds = 360 health.

Proposition #5: Monk or Ranger heals speed up degen or have any negative consequence.
FALSE!
I tried it with and without Heal Area, no change in degen rates.

Proposition #6: Minions experience "Life Exhaustion" the longer they are alive.
FALSE!
The total health of a horror/fiend does not change during it's life. I checked the proportion of healing they received from a Blood of the Master at the beginning of a horror's life and it was constant at about 1/3 of the life of a minion per heal throughout the life of the minion.

EDIT: I added #6.

EDIT2: I keep forgetting stuff. All tests were done with the following attributes:

Death Magic: 16
Blood Magic: 13
Healing: 7

Level 18 Horrors and Fiends for ALL tests.
Blood of the Master: 122 points healed per cast.
Heal Area: 100 points healed per cast.

Fungus Amongus · Jan 11, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Sorry you had to do all the work. I would've liked to join you and test this with Healing Spring also. Unfortunately after coming down with a cold yesterday, I ended up falling asleep at the wheel and woke up a few hours later still in my chair.

Excellent work though. Thanks for taking the time to clarify this for everyone.

Jan 11, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34	#11
Manic Smile Desert Nomad Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Hawaii Guild: ----- 15^50[Rare] ---- Alliance: ----- [SMS] -----	Here ...even if you're not interested in the specific build, makes no sense to be talking about the skills without seeing what I'm refering to. To keep the minnions alive always have Verata's Sacrafice up. In combat Blood of the Master or Heal Area if you know you're clear. After combat or during movement I find this works well ---> Heal Area + BlotM + Heal Area again. This build is intended to keep minnions alive as long as possible. OoB and Verata's Gaze are swappable. The heal area heals you as well, offsetting the sac spells and can be stratigically used to help monks/casters. Also a ranger build with healing spring in place of Heal area works well and you can throw winnioning in as well for when you really have the minnion army going. One final note this is pve where I take no damage...I don't recomend having the second sup rune(soul reaping) if your in pvp. Last edited by Manic Smile; Jan 11, 2006 at 02:49 AM // 02:49..

Jan 11, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14	#13
Carinae Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Inside Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	I tested this last night. Hope this settles some misconceptions. Proposition #1: Minions Degen at 1 pip every 20 seconds. CORRECT! Verified. Proposition #2: Minion Degen maxes at -10 pips. CORRECT! After about 3 and a half minutes, then minion degen maxes. No matter what, it never got worse. Even 25 minutes later. Proposition #3: Eventually, you CANNOT keep a minion alive and it will die. FALSE! I was able to keep a Horror and Fiend alive for 25 minutes, and was perfectly capable of maintaining them INDEFINATELY. Once, they reach max degen, stop casting Verata's Sacrifice, and just cast Blood of the Master, Heal Area, and Offering of Blood. I was able to keep healing the horror/fiend to MAX health AND keep myself at MAX HEALTH and MAX ENERGY. Proposition #4: Horrors and Fiends both have 360 health points. CORRECT! It takes 18 seconds for a horror/fiend to degen from max health to zero, while at MAX degen. -20 health/second * 18 seconds = 360 health. Proposition #5: Monk or Ranger heals speed up degen or have any negative consequence. FALSE! I tried it with and without Heal Area, no change in degen rates. Proposition #6: Minions experience "Life Exhaustion" the longer they are alive. FALSE! The total health of a horror/fiend does not change during it's life. I checked the proportion of healing they received from a Blood of the Master at the beginning of a horror's life and it was constant at about 1/3 of the life of a minion per heal throughout the life of the minion. EDIT: I added #6. EDIT2: I keep forgetting stuff. All tests were done with the following attributes: Death Magic: 16 Blood Magic: 13 Healing: 7 Level 18 Horrors and Fiends for ALL tests. Blood of the Master: 122 points healed per cast. Heal Area: 100 points healed per cast. Last edited by Carinae; Jan 11, 2006 at 09:15 PM // 21:15..

Jan 11, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53	#14
Fungus Amongus Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare] \| [Rare] Alliance	Sorry you had to do all the work. I would've liked to join you and test this with Healing Spring also. Unfortunately after coming down with a cold yesterday, I ended up falling asleep at the wheel and woke up a few hours later still in my chair. Excellent work though. Thanks for taking the time to clarify this for everyone. Last edited by Fungus Amongus; Jan 11, 2006 at 08:56 PM // 20:56..

Jan 10, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37	#1
Kylista Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Nov 2005	Minion's Mastering 101? Ok, so I followed the craze of the day and made a MM last week...now my problem is this, can someone teach me how to get the most out of my minions? My basic question is how to keep them alive. I understand the constant degen and it gets worse the more you heal them so am I supposed to spam Verata's Sacrifice as soon as possible once its done recharing? Do I do the same thing with Blood of the master? OR.....am I supposed to time the casting of those so that they don't degen faster? Final question, can someone explain to me the details of the degen (I know the basics). If I cast BOM as fast as possible, am I making them degen faster? Is it a good thing or a bad thing if a fellow monk is casting heal area on my minions? My skill set for the minions is this: Verata's Sacrifice Blood of the master Heal area Animate Bone Horror Animate Bone Minions Animate Bone Fiend My main attribute distribution is this: soul reaping: 11 death: 14 Thanks!

Jan 10, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40	#2
Shadowsoflifex Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Dec 2005 Profession: A/D	Im not to big on MMs but Healarea = great for an MM. Heals all thoose minions at once. ( i have a necro but hes more of blood/SS).

Jan 10, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45	#3
Carinae Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Inside Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	Use Search. There are some really solid MM builds in Riverside and Campfire.

Jan 10, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51	#4
Kylista Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Nov 2005	My question is not really a build related one, its more how to use the skills in the build.....I could care less what everyone's build is, I just want to know what's a good way to maximize the life of my minions.....

Jan 10, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51	#5
Snowduck Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Oct 2005 Profession: Mo/	Healing doesn't speed up minion degen rate. Neither your healing or a monk healing will affect that at all. Degen starts at -1 pip, and increases by -1 pip every 20 seconds. They'll max at -10 pips just like a player does, but "hidden" degen will continue to accumulate that will eventually cancel out the +10 pips from Verata's Sacrifice. I recast Verata's Sacrifice every time it's ready, and toss in a Heal Area as I need it due to sacrifice costs. MM also stands for Motion Machine. A team with a MM should be moving quickly, picking up fresh corpses as you go. Get Death up to 16 so they have as much health and armor as possible.

Jan 10, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37	#6
Kylista Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Nov 2005	Ahhhh...yes that answer is exactly what I was looking for....okay so that helps a ton, thank you. By the way what brought this up also was last night, I was doing a mission with my monk character, and having a MM necro as one of my other characters, I brought along heal area to help the MM necro we had in our group. I would always try to cast heal area to support the necro but eventually he shouted back (in cap's no less).... The_Crummy_MM_In_My_Group: STOP HEALING MY MINIONS BECAUSE THEY DEGEN FASTER I was very confused because I thought it was based on time and not the amount of heal they get....thanks again!

Jan 10, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48	#7
DeanBB Forge Runner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Arizona Guild: Wizardry Players Guild, http://4guildwars.7.forumer.com	Was he using them as bombs? Perhaps that was his point, let them die so they explode and also grant him energy? Otherwise, he's an idiot.

Jan 10, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16	#8
Carinae Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Inside Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	There is a persistent rumor that any healing except BotM/VS causes minions to degen faster. Especially monk heals. It's total rubbish, of course. I run N/Mo with Heal Area and I have not seen this happen.

Jan 10, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37	#9
Fungus Amongus Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare] \| [Rare] Alliance	Time for some solid testing tonight. I was criticized for using healing spring to aid in keeping a teammate's minions alive. I beleive I know the reasoning behind the misconception that healing causes minions to degen faster. (I will assume this is misconception until I complete my test.) 1.) As is commonly stated, minions' degeneration increases over time. 2.) If you don't heal a minion it will eventually die. 3.) If you can heal enough to counter the -10 health regen, a minion should theoretically not die. 4.) If a minion's degeneration can exceed -10 health degeneration, it might eventually be impossible to keep a minion alive. I beleive the misconception arises from the fact that the healing has helped the minion survive until it is still alive during it's max degeneration. When the healing stops while the minion is at max degeneration, the master perceives that the healing is the cause for the sudden loss of health. When I complete the test I will post my results. P.S. Carinae, your guild name is strikingly similar to mine. Did you copy me?

Jan 11, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06	#10
Carinae Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Inside Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	No, but I get a 5* bonus for being the guild leader.